Sanguinary Guard vs Vanguard Vets vs Honour Guard!

So, again, I'm testing some 1000pt and 1500pt lists for Berks Spring Assault this April and an Escalation League starting in January at Brave New Worlds.  And in my jump pack based lists I had what I would call an "Elite Jump Troop" unit.  

At first I just blindly plugged in some Sanguinary Guard with Power Fist, Infernus Pistols and a Chapter Banner because its what I've used in the past (especially with Dante).  But then I thought, maybe I should look through the codex and see if similarly constructed units would be just as good, cheaper or maybe even better. 

So my criteria to fit this unit niche was A) It had to be jump troops. I don't want my elite unit slowing down the rest of my units.   And secondly,  B) I wanted them to have a lot of power weapons to be able to take down heavily armoured troops (oh, who am I kidding, Grey Knight terminators and paladins heheh).  That's pretty much it.   So looking through the codex, other than Sanguinary Guard, both Vanguard Vets and Honour Guard seem to fit these criteria as well.  

By the way, I didn't include Death Company because giving them Jump Packs is REALLY expensive and they have the Rage rule.  I generally only run death company in vehicles so I can at least steer them in the right direction before they disembark.  Death Company for me are generally a fun, fluffy unit I run when I want to play something different and add a bit of chaos to a game.

So I made up a few equal strength units and compared them:

Vanguard Vets

4 marines and 1 sarge

Power weapons for 4 marines

Jump Packs for all

Power fist for sarge

1x Infernus pistol

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210pts

Sanguinary Guard

5x Sanguinary Guard

Chapter Banner

1x Power Fist

1x Infernus Pistol

--------------------------------------------

250pts total

Honour Guard

4 Honour Guard and 1 Sanguinary Novitiate

Jump Packs for all

Power weapons for 4 Guard

Power Fist for Sanguinary Novitiate

1x Infernus Pistol

-----------------------------------------------

265pts total

So in making these units, I wanted them all to have a Powerfist and Infernus Pistol so they could take on armor as well.  Also, I gave the Sanguinary Guard a Chapter Banner just so they have the same amount of attacks as the other two units.  The Sanguinary Guards' Glaive Encarmine weapons are two-handed weapons, meaning they don't get an extra attack for having a pistol like the other two units. 

Now that we have these units as equivalent as we can make them, lets compare how they match up...

 

Sanguinary Guard pros:

- 2+ Armor save.  I roll pretty horribly so this is kind of a big factor for me...

- Chapter Banner gives plus +1 attack to unit and friendly units within 12" can reroll Morale and Pinning Checks

- Leadership 10

- If taken with Dante, they can claim objectives

Sanguinary Guard cons:

- No invul saves for a unit that costs as much as Terminators (hmm seems to be case with the Vanguard Vets and Honour Guard units too though... hmmm)

- Fearless, not the biggest fan of Fearless, these troops are already Ld10 and I'd much rather have "And they shall know no fear..."

- Glaive Encarmine are two handed power weapons thus you don't get an extra attack for carrying a pistol.  This makes a Chapter Banner almost mandatory... more points to spend :(

- Sanguinary Guard start at 200pts - Expensive!

- Cannot have more than 5 per squad

Vanguard Veteran Squad pros:

- You can get extra attack for pistol taken (Sang. Guard Glaive Encarmine are two handed power weapons) for a total of 3 attacks or 4 on a charge.

- Its the least expensive of the 3 units.  Base cost is only 115pts.  With Power weapons the cost goes up by 60pts still cheaper than base Sanguinary Guard

- Heroic Intervention - may assault after deep striking.  This is pretty cool, but I think i need to see if it actually works well in a game.  Even with the reduced 6" scatter that Blood Angels get, I could see these troops scattering out of assault range making them sitting ducks.  But for now I'm putting this in the Pros section because you dont have to assault after deep striking if you don't want to.

- You can add up to 5 more marines, which is nice if you wanna scale for larger games

Vanguard Veteran Squad cons:

- Only 3+ armor

- Leadership 9

- Can't claim objectives

Honour Guard pros:

- Has built in "Sanguinary Novitiate" which gives Furious Charge and Feel No Pain, so you dont have to buy a Sanguinary Preist for this unit and nearby units

- Doesn't take up a force slot. It's attached to whatever HQ you take.

- Can take a Chapter Banner to get +1 attack, making it the unit with the most attacks at 5 attacks EACH on a charge! 

WOW!  2 base attacks + Pistol attack + Chapter Banner attack + Charge attack = A LOT OF ATTACKS FOR 5 DUDES! 

Keep in mind though, this will bump the unit cost up to 295pts for a 5 man squad that only has 3+ armour saves and no invul saves!  Yikes!  Watch out for Plasma shots or even a single lucky Vindicator Devastator cannon blast!

But, imagine taking this 25 attack unit and having a Librarian with Unleash Rage tagging along!  Reroll hits galore!!!  I'm drooling at the thought of this...

Honour Guard cons:

- Can't claim objectives

- Can only have 5 models in a unit, no more.

- Most expensive unit

- Only Leadership 9, but if you have your HQ tag along this isn't that big a deal...

- Only 3+ armour and no invul saves for a Terminator equivalent cost unit

Hmmmmm....

This fight is nowhere near as cut and dry as my earlier Librarian versus Reclusiarch fight.   First off, the Honour Guard with a Chapter Banner AND a Librarian with Unleash Rage has me REALLY intrigued with all those attacks, even though its rather expensive for such a frail unit.   Overall, the Sanguinary Guard seem the most resilient of the bunch with its 2+ save but all of the compared units have no invulnerability save options.   Also, the ability to be Troops if Commander Dante is in the army is pretty clutch.  At lower point cost games, the Vanguard Vets seem the way to go and are the most cost effective way to get a lot of power weapon attacks on the field.  I think GW actually did a good job of balancing these units against each other.  Honestly I think further play testing is required for me to make a decision.... and even then I doubt one will be hands down winner against the others.

So far I'd say the verdict is:

A DRAW!

One other option though, (and this is what I'm currently running in a few of my lists) is a unit of 5 Assault Terminators with 4 Lightening Claws and 1 Thunderhammer/ Stormshield Termies with a Terminator Librarian with Unleash Rage flying around in a Stormraven so they can keep up with my Assault Squads.   Now, I didn't include this unit in this comparison because it is heavily dependent on the Stormraven to get around quickly and the Librarian's Unleash Rage ability (reroll to hit as well as Lightening Claws' reroll to wounds!) to be the most effective it can be.  It's also about 550pts for this single deathstar unit!  But then again, they are far more resilient than the jump troops I compared above...

What do you guys think?  Did I miss any key options/factors?  Am I completely off base?   Put your comments/questions down below!

Librarian vs. Reclusiarch... FIGHT!!!

I'm currently testing 1000pt lists for the Berks Spring Assault and I was considering which would be the better HQ choice.  Using a big point character like Dante or Mephiston is difficult in this small a list so I wanted something more cost effective.   Actually, Dante may still be a good choice if you use Sanguinary Guard with him (they become troops and can deep strike without scattering).  But it limits your other options in such a small list size.  Also, Terminators are more resilient than Sanguinary Guard (no invul save!).

I was reading Jawaballs' recent posts for his latest build and he seems to really like Lightening Claw Termies which get rerolls to wound.  He then gives them rerolls to hit with either a Librarian (Unleash Rage) or Reclusiarch (Liturgies of blood).  I think this is a great synergy for the Termies, which could dominate a field at such a small point size list.    I forget offhand what HQ he used to buff them for his big 1850-2000 list but I was gonna compare the two HQs here in this post.   So lets take a look...

Librarian pros:

- Psychic hood: Psychic defense.  With all the Grey Knights out there (I heard Mechanicon had a ton of them... it's a jump the shark army already?), Psychic defense is pretty indispensable for an all comers list.

- Psychic power options:  I generally use my Librarian to buff my Lightening Claw Termies with Unleash Rage (Preferred Enemy-reroll hits), and also give him Sanguine Sword which makes his Attacks S10 and AP1 (but still keeps his initiative! unlike thunderhammers)... great for popping pretty much any transport out there.   But even if you don't like those two options, you have multiple other psychic powers to chose from. Again, more options to customize to your needs.

- Scalable: You can upgrade Librarian to an Epistolary to let him use both his powers in one turn

- Force weapon: Instant Death!  If your model comes up against a tough Independent Character (without Eternal Warrior), you can kill them with one wound regardless of how many they may have!  Clutch!  Even if you don't use the Force Weapon power, he still has a Power Weapon just like the Reclusiarch.

- Can get Terminator armor and a Storm Shield.   2+ armor and 3+ invulnerable saves are very nice! Reclusiarch can use Terminator armor but he CAN'T get a Storm Shield.  Again, its nice to have options and I generally give my Librarian both Terminator Armor and Storm Shield.

Librarian cons:

- Weaker attack, initiative, ballistic skill and wound stats than Reclusiarch (see below)

- With failed psychic tests, the Librarian can wound/kill himself!

- Enemy psykers can negate his abilities

Reclusiarch pros:

- Reclusiarch has 3 base attacks versus Librarian's 2 attacks

- Reclusiarch has Initiative 5, Librarian is only I4

- Reclusiarch has BS5 versus Librarian's BS4

- Reclusiarch has 3 wounds to Librarian's 2 wounds

- Don't need to pass Psychic test for rerolls to hit, also can't be negated by enemy psykers

Reclusiarch cons:

- Some may argue, but getting Fearless is not a bonus in my book especially with a unit leader who has Ld10.  And they shall know no fear is MUCH better in my opinion...

- Offers no psychic defense, leaving you vulnerable to psykers.

So, comparing the two, unless you are building a list custom against an army that uses no psykers, the Librarian seems to be the clear winner.   Even in cases when you're not up against psykers I think the Librarian still wins.  Since the Reclusiarch only has a regular Power Weapon, the Librarian's ability to have a S10 AP1 weapon against tanks or his Force Weapon to use against multi wound models make him the more versatile option.  That and his base cost is 30pts cheaper than the Reclusiarch!   I guess the only way I would go would go with the Reclusiarch is if I were going up against a major Psyker army where I knew my Librarian's psychic powers would be constantly negated.... something like a psyker heavy Eldar army.    With the over saturation of Grey Knights in today's game and the need for the ability to negate those powers, the Librarian is the clear winner.

KO!

What do you think?   Did I miss anything?  Am I totally off base comparing these two?  Let me know in the comments.

How to beat Grey Knights with Blood Angels

Bell of Lost Souls had an interesting article on how to beat Grey Knights with your Blood Angels.  I find Grey Knights one of the most challenging armies to go against lately.   They are probably the one of the best or the best close combat army out right now (either them or space wolves).  Whether its an army full of Terminators with I6 Power weapons who also happen to be troop choices, or all those Dreadnoughts with twin linked Psybolt Autocannons that rip my Razorbacks and Stormraven to shreds.  

I've found the meta game is shifting away from the Razorback spam of a year or two ago.   Everyone seems geared to killing a lot of light armor.  I'm considering putting one or two Landraiders in my army lists and having my Assault Marines use Jet packs, relying on their speed because they simply can't go toe to toe with I6 Paladins/Terminators.   I've noticed the need for power weapon and plasma weapon spam has spiked because of all these Grey Knight Terminators.  The problem is you can't really get many of either to your troop choices with Blood Angels.  I've also considered having a stationary Devastator squad to compensate for not using Razorback Lascannons.  Right now I'm testing different 1000pt lists in anticipation of Berks Spring Assault this April.

Anyway here is that article link:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/12/nemesis-how-to-beat-grey-knights-blood.html